Comments on: Standing out in the crowd… in PHP http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/14/standing-out-in-the-crowd-in-php/ Women, feminism, and geek culture Wed, 16 May 2012 16:39:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Liz Henry http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/14/standing-out-in-the-crowd-in-php/comment-page-1/#comment-74 Liz Henry Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:44:49 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=205#comment-74 No I'm totally with you in not being a delicate flower, instead what I feel is justified political anger. I think part of what I object to is that in our world, women-only and women-majority environments and discussions are very useful. And men use the fact of their discomfort to disrupt the conversations women have with each other for their benefit, as if it's a national emergency when the spotlight isn't on men's total comfort 100% of the time. I also think that men could productively examine that discomfort and learn something from it. Men in our society have a pattern of behaving as if they're entitled to women's attention and labor. And bodies. I see Sodini as being the extreme of that spectrum, that starts with men being jerks and feeling entitled. So when I'm like, Hey, I'd like to ask a question in IRC about Drupal without being sexually harassed, I think I'll go hang out in #drupalchix, I am just in no mood to hear some guy saying that he wants drupalchix to devote their time and attention into making *him* comfortable. No I’m totally with you in not being a delicate flower, instead what I feel is justified political anger.

I think part of what I object to is that in our world, women-only and women-majority environments and discussions are very useful. And men use the fact of their discomfort to disrupt the conversations women have with each other for their benefit, as if it’s a national emergency when the spotlight isn’t on men’s total comfort 100% of the time. I also think that men could productively examine that discomfort and learn something from it. Men in our society have a pattern of behaving as if they’re entitled to women’s attention and labor. And bodies. I see Sodini as being the extreme of that spectrum, that starts with men being jerks and feeling entitled. So when I’m like, Hey, I’d like to ask a question in IRC about Drupal without being sexually harassed, I think I’ll go hang out in #drupalchix, I am just in no mood to hear some guy saying that he wants drupalchix to devote their time and attention into making *him* comfortable.

]]> By: Skud http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/14/standing-out-in-the-crowd-in-php/comment-page-1/#comment-73 Skud Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:30:17 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=205#comment-73 Mmm, yeah, but I also think it's important to recognise that we're not just uncomfortable because we're delicate flowers who can't handle the situation, you know? The discomfort is real, and universal, even if women's discomfort comes as part of a whole bigger package that doesn't apply to men. Mmm, yeah, but I also think it’s important to recognise that we’re not just uncomfortable because we’re delicate flowers who can’t handle the situation, you know? The discomfort is real, and universal, even if women’s discomfort comes as part of a whole bigger package that doesn’t apply to men.

]]> By: Liz Henry http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/14/standing-out-in-the-crowd-in-php/comment-page-1/#comment-72 Liz Henry Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:27:39 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=205#comment-72 I disagree with the very point that you quote here. Yes, men feel uncomfortable when they're the only man in a room or a profession full of women. But that is situational discomfort, not institutionalized oppression. So, I would not equate feeling uncomfortable in a situation with a larger social dynamic, which I'd call... patriarchy. So, I have to be contrary here. However, I do think that having more women in the room helps us situationally feel more comfortable and then more likely to work collectively to figure out ways to counteract some of the things that work against us. I regret anyone feeling uncomfortable or alienated to some extent, but, when a guy says he is uncomfortable in a room full of women, my real response is "Oh cry me a river." As a dude no one has ever acted in his technical job interview like he's going to get pregnant and leave and thus not hire him or pay him 30K less, for one thing. I like the rest of Naramore's post a lot, though. I disagree with the very point that you quote here. Yes, men feel uncomfortable when they’re the only man in a room or a profession full of women. But that is situational discomfort, not institutionalized oppression. So, I would not equate feeling uncomfortable in a situation with a larger social dynamic, which I’d call… patriarchy. So, I have to be contrary here.

However, I do think that having more women in the room helps us situationally feel more comfortable and then more likely to work collectively to figure out ways to counteract some of the things that work against us.

I regret anyone feeling uncomfortable or alienated to some extent, but, when a guy says he is uncomfortable in a room full of women, my real response is “Oh cry me a river.” As a dude no one has ever acted in his technical job interview like he’s going to get pregnant and leave and thus not hire him or pay him 30K less, for one thing.

I like the rest of Naramore’s post a lot, though.

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