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	<title>Comments on: Conference recordings and harassment</title>
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	<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/</link>
	<description>Women, feminism, and geek culture</description>
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		<title>By: Jonquil</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1924</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonquil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1924</guid>
		<description>Pierce, there are two forks here.

1:  I was speaking from hearsay and ignorance without having done my research.  I apologize.
2.  My quick Google says that the law is unclear enough that a prudent professional photographer always gets a release.  This is in no way the same as its being legally required.  http://asmp.org/tutorials/property-and-model-releases.html

So, the situation wasn&#039;t as I remembered it; the analogy is bad; it is still wise to get model&#039;s releases if you&#039;re planning on circulating the photograph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pierce, there are two forks here.</p>
<p>1:  I was speaking from hearsay and ignorance without having done my research.  I apologize.<br />
2.  My quick Google says that the law is unclear enough that a prudent professional photographer always gets a release.  This is in no way the same as its being legally required.  <a href="http://asmp.org/tutorials/property-and-model-releases.html" rel="nofollow">http://asmp.org/tutorials/property-and-model-releases.html</a></p>
<p>So, the situation wasn&#8217;t as I remembered it; the analogy is bad; it is still wise to get model&#8217;s releases if you&#8217;re planning on circulating the photograph.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierce</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1918</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1918</guid>
		<description>Jonquil: got a cite for that? All the photographer&#039;s and model&#039;s rights stuff I can find with a quick search indicates that US law is similar to Australian law in this regard. A photo taken from anywhere the photographer had a legal right to be and in an otherwise legal manner (such as not violating the local wiretapping statutes) can be published without a model release unless the photo is used in such a way as to imply that the subject of the photo agrees with, advocates, or endorses some  position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonquil: got a cite for that? All the photographer&#8217;s and model&#8217;s rights stuff I can find with a quick search indicates that US law is similar to Australian law in this regard. A photo taken from anywhere the photographer had a legal right to be and in an otherwise legal manner (such as not violating the local wiretapping statutes) can be published without a model release unless the photo is used in such a way as to imply that the subject of the photo agrees with, advocates, or endorses some  position.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonquil</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1802</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonquil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1802</guid>
		<description>Excellent point.  ::thwaps self on head for being US-centric YET AGAIN::</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent point.  ::thwaps self on head for being US-centric YET AGAIN::</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1801</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1801</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;posting those pictures on the Web (or publishing them in any way) requires a photographerâ€™s release. (Not everybody remembers this.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is highly jurisdiction dependent. In NSW (Australia) &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the photographer&#039;s rights summaries&lt;/a&gt; imply that you do not in fact need a release for publication unless you are using the photograph to endorse a product (ie, you do need a release to use the photograph in an advertisement, not otherwise).

Courtesy and ethics are of course a different thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>posting those pictures on the Web (or publishing them in any way) requires a photographerâ€™s release. (Not everybody remembers this.)</p></blockquote>
<p>This is highly jurisdiction dependent. In NSW (Australia) <a href="http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php" rel="nofollow">the photographer&#8217;s rights summaries</a> imply that you do not in fact need a release for publication unless you are using the photograph to endorse a product (ie, you do need a release to use the photograph in an advertisement, not otherwise).</p>
<p>Courtesy and ethics are of course a different thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Skud</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1793</link>
		<dc:creator>Skud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1793</guid>
		<description>I think video of keynotes is pretty widely watched (at least based on my experience with OSCON and thinking about my own watching habits), as is video of &quot;rockstars&quot; especially if their talk is entertaining.  Ignite talks, too, seem to get quite a lot of watches, probably because they are both short and entertaining.

I&#039;m more likely to watch conference video if the production standards are high.  For instance, I love watching TED videos because they are both interesting and well produced.  The videos of talks at Google are also good that way.  And yes, two cameras, one of them on the slides, and editing them together, is a big part of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think video of keynotes is pretty widely watched (at least based on my experience with OSCON and thinking about my own watching habits), as is video of &#8220;rockstars&#8221; especially if their talk is entertaining.  Ignite talks, too, seem to get quite a lot of watches, probably because they are both short and entertaining.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m more likely to watch conference video if the production standards are high.  For instance, I love watching TED videos because they are both interesting and well produced.  The videos of talks at Google are also good that way.  And yes, two cameras, one of them on the slides, and editing them together, is a big part of that.</p>
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		<title>By: amk</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1791</link>
		<dc:creator>amk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1791</guid>
		<description>PyCon 2009 was held in March, and by May the videos on pycon.blip.tv had been viewed 100,000 times, according to blip&#039;s stats.  I think it&#039;s passed 180k by now.

Some people reported spending more time chatting in the hallway instead of cutting it short to leave for a talk because they knew the material would all be available.  This implies that the schedule should say which talks are being recorded and which aren&#039;t; otherwise, attendees might skip a talk intending to catch the video and discover too late that there isn&#039;t any.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PyCon 2009 was held in March, and by May the videos on pycon.blip.tv had been viewed 100,000 times, according to blip&#8217;s stats.  I think it&#8217;s passed 180k by now.</p>
<p>Some people reported spending more time chatting in the hallway instead of cutting it short to leave for a talk because they knew the material would all be available.  This implies that the schedule should say which talks are being recorded and which aren&#8217;t; otherwise, attendees might skip a talk intending to catch the video and discover too late that there isn&#8217;t any.</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothea Salo</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1788</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothea Salo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1788</guid>
		<description>I think we may have to accept less visibility in some cases. After all, a woman who&#039;s up on that podium doesn&#039;t suddenly become invisible just because a video doesn&#039;t go up! She is still speaking and still making a difference.

(I have my doubts about how much conference video gets used, anyway. I&#039;m willing to be wrong, so if you&#039;ve got stats, lay &#039;em on me, but that&#039;s my belief. Slides, yeah, lots, and sometimes well after the event. Video, not so much.)

We lose if we drive female speakers off the podium because they don&#039;t want their likenesses splashed all over the intarwebs for creeps to comment on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we may have to accept less visibility in some cases. After all, a woman who&#8217;s up on that podium doesn&#8217;t suddenly become invisible just because a video doesn&#8217;t go up! She is still speaking and still making a difference.</p>
<p>(I have my doubts about how much conference video gets used, anyway. I&#8217;m willing to be wrong, so if you&#8217;ve got stats, lay &#8216;em on me, but that&#8217;s my belief. Slides, yeah, lots, and sometimes well after the event. Video, not so much.)</p>
<p>We lose if we drive female speakers off the podium because they don&#8217;t want their likenesses splashed all over the intarwebs for creeps to comment on.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 02:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1780</guid>
		<description>Carla, my feeling about where I would go with #2 is that I&#039;m more than happy to say &quot;I chose to be visible because of X, I chose to speak out because of Y&quot; and also to offer to help others who are making or who have made a similar choice. The place I&#039;m not willing to go is to turn it into a &quot;you should&quot; kind of position. I don&#039;t know what &lt;a href=&quot;http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;kind&lt;/a&gt; of &lt;a href=&quot;http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090823.6329/on-swallowing-shit/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shit&lt;/a&gt; other people are dealing with and if they decide they need to defend themselves at the expense of visibility at any moment, I don&#039;t want to cross that.

But as I said, I don&#039;t think we&#039;re necessarily in an awfully different place on this, just that I&#039;m quite focused on #2 for various reasons at the moment and the focus is coming out in my writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carla, my feeling about where I would go with #2 is that I&#8217;m more than happy to say &#8220;I chose to be visible because of X, I chose to speak out because of Y&#8221; and also to offer to help others who are making or who have made a similar choice. The place I&#8217;m not willing to go is to turn it into a &#8220;you should&#8221; kind of position. I don&#8217;t know what <a href="http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html" rel="nofollow">kind</a> of <a href="http://hoydenabouttown.com/20090823.6329/on-swallowing-shit/" rel="nofollow">shit</a> other people are dealing with and if they decide they need to defend themselves at the expense of visibility at any moment, I don&#8217;t want to cross that.</p>
<p>But as I said, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re necessarily in an awfully different place on this, just that I&#8217;m quite focused on #2 for various reasons at the moment and the focus is coming out in my writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Carla Schroder</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>Carla Schroder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1779</guid>
		<description>Mary, regarding #1 you&#039;re absolutely right. 

#2 ...well... Nothing is going to change if we avoid things. We have to be brave and take stands. When, where, and how to do that are individual decisions. Is it worth not having a talk filmed and shared on the Internet, where it can potentially benefit great numbers of viewers as well as the speaker, for fear of attracting some unwanted attention? I can&#039;t answer that for someone else-- for me the answer is &quot;No.&quot; I want to be visible to encourage other women. In fact I am several demographics in one-- female, mid-life career changer, self-taught, gay, and old. (52) So dammit, if I&#039;m going to stick my neck out I better have some company :)

Keeping bad things hidden works against us-- fear and secrets have been used against women from the beginning of time. I would never try to make anyone do something she doesn&#039;t want to do. But I think we need more voices encouraging bravery and visibility, and more cahootsing to figure out how to deal with the cruddy stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary, regarding #1 you&#8217;re absolutely right. </p>
<p>#2 &#8230;well&#8230; Nothing is going to change if we avoid things. We have to be brave and take stands. When, where, and how to do that are individual decisions. Is it worth not having a talk filmed and shared on the Internet, where it can potentially benefit great numbers of viewers as well as the speaker, for fear of attracting some unwanted attention? I can&#8217;t answer that for someone else&#8211; for me the answer is &#8220;No.&#8221; I want to be visible to encourage other women. In fact I am several demographics in one&#8211; female, mid-life career changer, self-taught, gay, and old. (52) So dammit, if I&#8217;m going to stick my neck out I better have some company :)</p>
<p>Keeping bad things hidden works against us&#8211; fear and secrets have been used against women from the beginning of time. I would never try to make anyone do something she doesn&#8217;t want to do. But I think we need more voices encouraging bravery and visibility, and more cahootsing to figure out how to deal with the cruddy stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/11/conference-recordings-and-harassment/comment-page-1/#comment-1778</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1351#comment-1778</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree with you or Audrey I think, it&#039;s possibly a difference in emphasis or even expression. There are two principles I&#039;m working from:
1. women deserve to have their boundaries respected and honoured
2. there is an unhelpful pattern in response to harassment and abuse, which is an immediate pile-on of &quot;you should have reported it&quot;, &quot;you should have told him where to go&quot;, &quot;you should have shrugged it off&quot; (Karen Healey puts this well at http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/812261.html )

I really don&#039;t want to play into #2 in particular in talking about this.

Having said that, it&#039;s clear that attending and speaking at geek conferences is fun and professionally advantageous and feminists can support women better in doing it. (I am not so sure actually that being recorded is all that important for non-keynote talks, and appearing on someone&#039;s Flickr stream as &quot;LOL this girl was at a Linux conference!! she&#039;s kinda cute but I was too shy to hit on her&quot; is probably without upsides at all.)

That conversation we should keep having, but it wasn&#039;t emphasised in this post. I was largely taking it for granted: I&#039;ve been part of a few conversations over the past year that were along the lines of &quot;speakers who refuse to allow their talks to be recorded are selfish uptight corporate jerks, there&#039;s no good reason for it.&quot; As usual, if you ask some women about what happens when they appear in public, it turns out there&#039;s a different story. A lot of conference organisers didn&#039;t know that women were being harassed based on video footage. Now they do (well, when someone sends them the link they do).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with you or Audrey I think, it&#8217;s possibly a difference in emphasis or even expression. There are two principles I&#8217;m working from:<br />
1. women deserve to have their boundaries respected and honoured<br />
2. there is an unhelpful pattern in response to harassment and abuse, which is an immediate pile-on of &#8220;you should have reported it&#8221;, &#8220;you should have told him where to go&#8221;, &#8220;you should have shrugged it off&#8221; (Karen Healey puts this well at <a href="http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/812261.html" rel="nofollow">http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/812261.html</a> )</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t want to play into #2 in particular in talking about this.</p>
<p>Having said that, it&#8217;s clear that attending and speaking at geek conferences is fun and professionally advantageous and feminists can support women better in doing it. (I am not so sure actually that being recorded is all that important for non-keynote talks, and appearing on someone&#8217;s Flickr stream as &#8220;LOL this girl was at a Linux conference!! she&#8217;s kinda cute but I was too shy to hit on her&#8221; is probably without upsides at all.)</p>
<p>That conversation we should keep having, but it wasn&#8217;t emphasised in this post. I was largely taking it for granted: I&#8217;ve been part of a few conversations over the past year that were along the lines of &#8220;speakers who refuse to allow their talks to be recorded are selfish uptight corporate jerks, there&#8217;s no good reason for it.&#8221; As usual, if you ask some women about what happens when they appear in public, it turns out there&#8217;s a different story. A lot of conference organisers didn&#8217;t know that women were being harassed based on video footage. Now they do (well, when someone sends them the link they do).</p>
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