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	<title>Comments on: Calling someone out and being heard</title>
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	<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/</link>
	<description>Women, feminism, and geek culture</description>
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		<title>By: FoolishOwl</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1934</link>
		<dc:creator>FoolishOwl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1934</guid>
		<description>One of the things I miss about the radical group I used to be a part of, was that we regularly called each other out on sexist and other oppressive comments. While people would often react defensively at first, it usually worked out, because:
We each understood that we all shared a commitment to opposing all forms of oppression, which limited the defensiveness -- we understood that we were each products of a sexist society, who were trying to overcome sexism, and therefore it was the sexist thought being rejected, not the person who expressed it.
The person criticizing the sexist comment could count on the support of the others in the group.
The person whose comment was criticized could expect forgiveness, once the mistake was acknowledged.
The outright sexists would, before long, realize they were unsupported and isolated, and would withdraw.
Having the backing of the group made an enormous difference. That outright sexists would withdraw was, unfortunately, all too rare a circumstance, since to an outright sexist man, being the only person left standing in the ruins constitutes total victory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things I miss about the radical group I used to be a part of, was that we regularly called each other out on sexist and other oppressive comments. While people would often react defensively at first, it usually worked out, because:<br />
We each understood that we all shared a commitment to opposing all forms of oppression, which limited the defensiveness &#8212; we understood that we were each products of a sexist society, who were trying to overcome sexism, and therefore it was the sexist thought being rejected, not the person who expressed it.<br />
The person criticizing the sexist comment could count on the support of the others in the group.<br />
The person whose comment was criticized could expect forgiveness, once the mistake was acknowledged.<br />
The outright sexists would, before long, realize they were unsupported and isolated, and would withdraw.<br />
Having the backing of the group made an enormous difference. That outright sexists would withdraw was, unfortunately, all too rare a circumstance, since to an outright sexist man, being the only person left standing in the ruins constitutes total victory.</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1902</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1902</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Liz. I will check some of those links out.

&lt;i&gt;Even in very sex positive progressive communities, really iffy non consensual incidents right on up to rape do happen.&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, often accompanied by denial that somehow seems even MORE off-putting, because you kind of want to expect better of them. 

And again, apologies for the derail.  I&#039;ve been having the exact opposite of calling people out and getting heard of late and am a little cranky over it. 

I love hearing these stories though - they make me happy. I also now return you all to promoting times things were awesome. 

I&#039;m glad Leigh pointed me here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Liz. I will check some of those links out.</p>
<p><i>Even in very sex positive progressive communities, really iffy non consensual incidents right on up to rape do happen.</i></p>
<p>Yeah, often accompanied by denial that somehow seems even MORE off-putting, because you kind of want to expect better of them. </p>
<p>And again, apologies for the derail.  I&#8217;ve been having the exact opposite of calling people out and getting heard of late and am a little cranky over it. </p>
<p>I love hearing these stories though &#8211; they make me happy. I also now return you all to promoting times things were awesome. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad Leigh pointed me here.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Henry</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1899</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1899</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know, but that certainly seems unlikely in any group of 40K people. I took a look and found &lt;a href=http://burningwoman.tribe.net/thread/d767ad53-8f01-46c8-a130-2328a52e2f42 rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Burning Woman sexual assault education&lt;/a&gt; suggestions for every camp.  Notably their education includes &quot;Don&#039;t rape anyone&quot; . Good job, Burning Women!

And this &lt;a href=http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&amp;q=cache%3AdKqfIqrGBAMJ%3Awww.dr-placebo.net%2FBED%2FRapeAtBurningMan.pdf+%22sexual+assault%22+burning+man&amp;hl=en&amp;gl=us&amp;sig=AFQjCNEtGV5_s7gp6yaatT_fig7mzDK9cw&amp;pli=1 rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;document from the Emergency Services team of Burning Man&lt;/a&gt; with advice on what to do if you&#039;ve been sexually assaulted.
&lt;blockquote&gt;It is shocking to realize that rape and sexual assault happens in our treasured Black Rock City, just at it
does in any city in America. B.E.D. is actively working to increase awareness and prevention of sexual
assault crimes at Burning Man. But what if this happens to you, or your friend -- What do you do? Where
do you go for help? How do you come to terms with what has happened?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Also,
* http://current.com/1qdnm4c
&quot;Perhaps most disturbing was the fact that deputies were inundated with calls reporting sexual assaults, the sheriff said. Deputies are investigating 11 alleged sexual assaults but have made no arrests, largely because of the difficulty of investigating crimes at Burning Man, Skinner said.&quot;

And last but not least, a &lt;a href=http://blog.hisnameistimmy.com/?p=12 rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;somewhat amusing cranky blogger&lt;/a&gt;:

&quot;Though not officially a sex party, Venus rules Uranus at Burning Man. The young get laid because they are young and older horny guys can get laid using drugs and booze as a lure. Sometimes their prey will stumble into camp pre-drugged, always a bonus. For many creepy middle-aged guys, Burning Man is a week long frat party where they get their last real shot at nailing women half their age. Lone women are easy prey. The darkness, disguises, anonymous playa nicknames and extreme intoxication that occurs at Burning Man makes it a date rapistâ€™s Disneyland. Of course, if sober and fully consensual sex is your thing, there are several approved swinger and sex-themed camps at Burning Man too.&quot;

If I were there, which I never have been and don&#039;t plan to be, I&#039;m sure I&#039;d be prancing around naked, high as a kite, and I&#039;d be very appreciative of the thought that the Burning Man organizers had put effort into anti-rape education and also support services.  Even in very sex positive progressive communities, really iffy non consensual incidents right on up to rape do happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know, but that certainly seems unlikely in any group of 40K people. I took a look and found <a href=http://burningwoman.tribe.net/thread/d767ad53-8f01-46c8-a130-2328a52e2f42 rel="nofollow">Burning Woman sexual assault education</a> suggestions for every camp.  Notably their education includes &#8220;Don&#8217;t rape anyone&#8221; . Good job, Burning Women!</p>
<p>And this <a href=http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&#038;q=cache%3AdKqfIqrGBAMJ%3Awww.dr-placebo.net%2FBED%2FRapeAtBurningMan.pdf+%22sexual+assault%22+burning+man&#038;hl=en&#038;gl=us&#038;sig=AFQjCNEtGV5_s7gp6yaatT_fig7mzDK9cw&#038;pli=1 rel="nofollow">document from the Emergency Services team of Burning Man</a> with advice on what to do if you&#8217;ve been sexually assaulted.</p>
<blockquote><p>It is shocking to realize that rape and sexual assault happens in our treasured Black Rock City, just at it<br />
does in any city in America. B.E.D. is actively working to increase awareness and prevention of sexual<br />
assault crimes at Burning Man. But what if this happens to you, or your friend &#8212; What do you do? Where<br />
do you go for help? How do you come to terms with what has happened?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Also,<br />
* <a href="http://current.com/1qdnm4c" rel="nofollow">http://current.com/1qdnm4c</a><br />
&#8220;Perhaps most disturbing was the fact that deputies were inundated with calls reporting sexual assaults, the sheriff said. Deputies are investigating 11 alleged sexual assaults but have made no arrests, largely because of the difficulty of investigating crimes at Burning Man, Skinner said.&#8221;</p>
<p>And last but not least, a <a href=http://blog.hisnameistimmy.com/?p=12 rel="nofollow">somewhat amusing cranky blogger</a>:</p>
<p>&#8220;Though not officially a sex party, Venus rules Uranus at Burning Man. The young get laid because they are young and older horny guys can get laid using drugs and booze as a lure. Sometimes their prey will stumble into camp pre-drugged, always a bonus. For many creepy middle-aged guys, Burning Man is a week long frat party where they get their last real shot at nailing women half their age. Lone women are easy prey. The darkness, disguises, anonymous playa nicknames and extreme intoxication that occurs at Burning Man makes it a date rapistâ€™s Disneyland. Of course, if sober and fully consensual sex is your thing, there are several approved swinger and sex-themed camps at Burning Man too.&#8221;</p>
<p>If I were there, which I never have been and don&#8217;t plan to be, I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;d be prancing around naked, high as a kite, and I&#8217;d be very appreciative of the thought that the Burning Man organizers had put effort into anti-rape education and also support services.  Even in very sex positive progressive communities, really iffy non consensual incidents right on up to rape do happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma Jane (emmajanedotnet) 's status on Friday, 16-Oct-09 16:43:38 UTC - Identi.ca</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1898</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma Jane (emmajanedotnet) 's status on Friday, 16-Oct-09 16:43:38 UTC - Identi.ca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1898</guid>
		<description>[...]  http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/        a few seconds ago  from  Gwibber [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  <a href="http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/" rel="nofollow">http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/</a>        a few seconds ago  from  Gwibber [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1895</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1895</guid>
		<description>Liz. This is entirely a derail, but I am actually curious about the Burning Man story now. (I have often had it told to me that no rapes or sexual assaults/harassment ever happens at Burning Man, which always struck me as an incredible statement.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liz. This is entirely a derail, but I am actually curious about the Burning Man story now. (I have often had it told to me that no rapes or sexual assaults/harassment ever happens at Burning Man, which always struck me as an incredible statement.)</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1894</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1894</guid>
		<description>Seconded on the awesomeness of that. I also will have to use that one day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seconded on the awesomeness of that. I also will have to use that one day.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Henry</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1893</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1893</guid>
		<description>I love the stories! 

Check out this 9th century apology form letter from China,

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/10/i-was-ready-to-sink-into-earth-with.html

&quot;Yesterday, having drunk too much, I was intoxicated as to pass all bounds; but none of the rude and coarse language I used was uttered in a conscious state. The next morning, after hearing others speak on the subject, I realised what had happened, whereupon I was overwhelmed with confusion and ready to sink into the earth with shame.&quot;

Heh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the stories! </p>
<p>Check out this 9th century apology form letter from China,</p>
<p><a href="http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/10/i-was-ready-to-sink-into-earth-with.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lettersofnote.com/2009/10/i-was-ready-to-sink-into-earth-with.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Yesterday, having drunk too much, I was intoxicated as to pass all bounds; but none of the rude and coarse language I used was uttered in a conscious state. The next morning, after hearing others speak on the subject, I realised what had happened, whereupon I was overwhelmed with confusion and ready to sink into the earth with shame.&#8221;</p>
<p>Heh.</p>
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		<title>By: Carmen</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1892</link>
		<dc:creator>Carmen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1892</guid>
		<description>One of the reasons that I love my boyfriend so much is that we can have these conversations, and call each other out on the other&#039;s bullshit and privilege when applicable, and neither of us gets upset about it. We just learn. And there&#039;s no defensiveness or yelling or derailing or whatever. It&#039;s so awesome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the reasons that I love my boyfriend so much is that we can have these conversations, and call each other out on the other&#8217;s bullshit and privilege when applicable, and neither of us gets upset about it. We just learn. And there&#8217;s no defensiveness or yelling or derailing or whatever. It&#8217;s so awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: PharaohKatt</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1879</link>
		<dc:creator>PharaohKatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1879</guid>
		<description>There was an incident that happened last week on Wednesday. I was at our usual Wednesday after work gathering (we play laser tag then go out for dinner).
I was lying on the floor because I had been at the childcare centre on very little sleep and was exhausted. One of the men there suggested he get out his swag, which I politely declined. 

Then, one of the other men made this joke: &quot;Go ahead, fall asleep. If you hear someone breathing heavily above you, don&#039;t worry. It&#039;s just me&quot;.

I replied, &quot;Don&#039;t ever make jokes to me like that again.&quot; 
He answered, &quot;Yes, you&#039;re right, that was completely inappropriate, I&#039;m so sorry!&quot;

He has also said that my presence in the group has made him less of a misogynist (as in, I&#039;m slowly changing his view of the world)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was an incident that happened last week on Wednesday. I was at our usual Wednesday after work gathering (we play laser tag then go out for dinner).<br />
I was lying on the floor because I had been at the childcare centre on very little sleep and was exhausted. One of the men there suggested he get out his swag, which I politely declined. </p>
<p>Then, one of the other men made this joke: &#8220;Go ahead, fall asleep. If you hear someone breathing heavily above you, don&#8217;t worry. It&#8217;s just me&#8221;.</p>
<p>I replied, &#8220;Don&#8217;t ever make jokes to me like that again.&#8221;<br />
He answered, &#8220;Yes, you&#8217;re right, that was completely inappropriate, I&#8217;m so sorry!&#8221;</p>
<p>He has also said that my presence in the group has made him less of a misogynist (as in, I&#8217;m slowly changing his view of the world)</p>
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		<title>By: PharaohKatt</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/14/calling-someone-out-and-being-heard/comment-page-1/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator>PharaohKatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1406#comment-1878</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;â€œActually, we only know its sex, the gender is still up in the airâ€&lt;/blockquote&gt;

By the gods, that&#039;s brilliant! I have to use that one day. I do so love it when men call each other out, and save me from doing it and getting stressed and upset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>â€œActually, we only know its sex, the gender is still up in the airâ€</p></blockquote>
<p>By the gods, that&#8217;s brilliant! I have to use that one day. I do so love it when men call each other out, and save me from doing it and getting stressed and upset.</p>
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