Comments on: “We’ve got your back.” http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/ Women, feminism, and geek culture Sun, 20 May 2012 08:18:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Rich Bowen http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-2070 Rich Bowen Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:05:23 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-2070 I think that's what frustrates me so much about stuff like this - that there are so few men who are willing to stand up at the time that it happens and let it be known that it's not acceptable. Yes, it's important to speak up afterwards, but if you're there, and something happens that is hateful, dishonoring, or just rude, someone needs to stand up and say that this just isn't ok. Have we drifted so far from our ideas of common decency, politeness, and good manners that we think it's ok to watch someone spew venom, and say nothing about it until we're back home and ensconced in anonymity? Seriously, guys, I know that a lot of the upper echelons in the Open Source world are true gentlemen who love their wives, respect their peers - male or female - and treat people as people, not as lines of code. We need to get to the point where we stand up - literally and figuratively - for what we know is decent, and speak out against folks who are being dishonoring of their peers. I think that’s what frustrates me so much about stuff like this – that there are so few men who are willing to stand up at the time that it happens and let it be known that it’s not acceptable. Yes, it’s important to speak up afterwards, but if you’re there, and something happens that is hateful, dishonoring, or just rude, someone needs to stand up and say that this just isn’t ok. Have we drifted so far from our ideas of common decency, politeness, and good manners that we think it’s ok to watch someone spew venom, and say nothing about it until we’re back home and ensconced in anonymity?

Seriously, guys, I know that a lot of the upper echelons in the Open Source world are true gentlemen who love their wives, respect their peers – male or female – and treat people as people, not as lines of code. We need to get to the point where we stand up – literally and figuratively – for what we know is decent, and speak out against folks who are being dishonoring of their peers.

]]> By: Mackenzie http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1935 Mackenzie Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:01:47 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1935 A. Simmons: Free Speech in the US only applies to government-based censorship, and there are plenty of exceptions for things like hate speech, harassment, threats, incitement to violence, incitement of panic, etc. A. Simmons:
Free Speech in the US only applies to government-based censorship, and there are plenty of exceptions for things like hate speech, harassment, threats, incitement to violence, incitement of panic, etc.

]]> By: Carla Schroder http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1931 Carla Schroder Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:12:17 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1931 In the US the line is drawn thusly: you can get in trouble for criticizing corporations, their practices and policies, or their products. Threats on individuals who are neither wealthy nor connected are trivial and permitted. In the US the line is drawn thusly: you can get in trouble for criticizing corporations, their practices and policies, or their products. Threats on individuals who are neither wealthy nor connected are trivial and permitted.

]]> By: Leigh Honeywell http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1922 Leigh Honeywell Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:37:11 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1922 Generally speaking, under Canadian law, statements to the effect of "kill all $protected_group" are considered hate speech. Generally speaking, under Canadian law, statements to the effect of “kill all $protected_group” are considered hate speech.

]]> By: A.Simmons http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1919 A.Simmons Sat, 17 Oct 2009 10:30:08 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1919 What Rick said. And thanks for the original PSA post. It might, just possibly, help open the eyes of some of those who like to grumble about political correctness. It's as important for those of us XYs who are sympathetic to and supportive of feminism, or anti-sexism, or just simple "don't be an arse" standards of conduct*, to meet a lame joke with appropriate (and proportionate) response as it is to unite to reject Mikee-brand psychosis threats. Yeah some might roll their eyes or mutter about political correctness; so what. [*or whatever you like to call it. Hmm, vocab fail. ] Incidentally, were Mikeee in the UK, it's not inconceivable that a complaint from someone he threatens could get proper attention from the police. 'Making threats to kill' or incitement thereof is a non-trivial offence, and after arrest he'd certainly get a psych eval, the result of which I shan't speculate on. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/ . Our line in the free-speech sand is drawn some way away from where it is in the US; I've no clue about Canadian law, though?) What Rick said.

And thanks for the original PSA post. It might, just possibly, help open the eyes of some of those who like to grumble about political correctness.

It’s as important for those of us XYs who are sympathetic to and supportive of feminism, or anti-sexism, or just simple “don’t be an arse” standards of conduct*, to meet a lame joke with appropriate (and proportionate) response as it is to unite to reject Mikee-brand psychosis threats. Yeah some might roll their eyes or mutter about political correctness; so what.

[*or whatever you like to call it. Hmm, vocab fail. ]

Incidentally, were Mikeee in the UK, it’s not inconceivable that a complaint from someone he threatens could get proper attention from the police. ‘Making threats to kill’ or incitement thereof is a non-trivial offence, and after arrest he’d certainly get a psych eval, the result of which I shan’t speculate on. http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offences_against_the_person/ . Our line in the free-speech sand is drawn some way away from where it is in the US; I’ve no clue about Canadian law, though?)

]]> By: koipond http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1916 koipond Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:01:39 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1916 Carla, That's okay. I don't think it really can be said enough. Just as it can't be said enough that guys have to stand up to all the every day stuff that happens too. Not just the culturally obvious things. See, I'm repeating Rick: <blockquote>The “everyday stuff” exists on a continuum, and guys — when we endorse it with our comments or by our silence, the guys who really do hate women see that as an endorsement — as confirmation that their views are not outside the mainstream; that they’re in accord with what most guys think. They need to hear otherwise from us when the “everyday stuff” happens — not just if they publicly post stuff that’s beyond the pale.</blockquote> Carla,

That’s okay. I don’t think it really can be said enough. Just as it can’t be said enough that guys have to stand up to all the every day stuff that happens too. Not just the culturally obvious things.

See, I’m repeating Rick:

The “everyday stuff” exists on a continuum, and guys — when we endorse it with our comments or by our silence, the guys who really do hate women see that as an endorsement — as confirmation that their views are not outside the mainstream; that they’re in accord with what most guys think. They need to hear otherwise from us when the “everyday stuff” happens — not just if they publicly post stuff that’s beyond the pale.

]]> By: Carla Schroder http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1914 Carla Schroder Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:07:31 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1914 "And it’s the little things, repeated over and over and excused just as often, that serve to reinforce the feeling that we don’t quite belong, and that the majority of the community might not back us up, might even attack us, if the shit hits the fan." Note to self: read more carefully before commenting. kbye :) “And it’s the little things, repeated over and over and excused just as often, that serve to reinforce the feeling that we don’t quite belong, and that the majority of the community might not back us up, might even attack us, if the shit hits the fan.”

Note to self: read more carefully before commenting.
kbye :)

]]> By: Dorothea Salo http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1913 Dorothea Salo Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:52:06 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1913 This is, again, why the documentation effort on the GF wiki is so terribly vital. Another phenomenon that precludes action is the sense that every incident is, well, incidental -- a one-of-a-kind oops, an edge case. Geeks are pattern-makers and pattern-matchers. Show them a bad pattern, and they're a lot more likely to consider it seriously and work to rectify it. So three cheers for the GF wiki team! This is, again, why the documentation effort on the GF wiki is so terribly vital. Another phenomenon that precludes action is the sense that every incident is, well, incidental — a one-of-a-kind oops, an edge case.

Geeks are pattern-makers and pattern-matchers. Show them a bad pattern, and they’re a lot more likely to consider it seriously and work to rectify it.

So three cheers for the GF wiki team!

]]> By: Cesy http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1910 Cesy Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:47:56 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1910 Once again my only real comment consists of: Yes. Thank you. Once again my only real comment consists of: Yes. Thank you.

]]> By: Jonquil http://geekfeminism.org/2009/10/15/weve-got-your-back/comment-page-1/#comment-1897 Jonquil Fri, 16 Oct 2009 16:40:33 +0000 http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1414#comment-1897 Fantastic post by Skud. I think it takes multiple mess-ups for some people to get it; people who may have shrugged at Kathy Sierra slowly, public fight by public fight, start to realize that something's wrong. I don't see how a reasonable person can accept permitting hate speech on OSS forums, and I suspect the extreme cases are the ones that, maybe, open a few minds. Some people will insist to the death on their free-market "if it doesn't happen naturally, it doesn't matter" approach to women's participation in OSS; others, I think, may be beginning to listen. Fantastic post by Skud.

I think it takes multiple mess-ups for some people to get it; people who may have shrugged at Kathy Sierra slowly, public fight by public fight, start to realize that something’s wrong. I don’t see how a reasonable person can accept permitting hate speech on OSS forums, and I suspect the extreme cases are the ones that, maybe, open a few minds.

Some people will insist to the death on their free-market “if it doesn’t happen naturally, it doesn’t matter” approach to women’s participation in OSS; others, I think, may be beginning to listen.

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