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	<title>Comments on: Doubting the Daubing Philosophy</title>
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	<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/</link>
	<description>Women, feminism, and geek culture</description>
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		<title>By: koipond</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2521</link>
		<dc:creator>koipond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2521</guid>
		<description>This.  Seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This.  Seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2514</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2514</guid>
		<description>If you add &quot;and I have a great support network in , so I&#039;m never alone&quot;, then it looks pretty good to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you add &#8220;and I have a great support network in , so I&#8217;m never alone&#8221;, then it looks pretty good to me.</p>
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		<title>By: G</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2512</link>
		<dc:creator>G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2512</guid>
		<description>How would this work for giving science students a fair warning without driving them away:  &quot;My life in science is extremely rewarding.  Some of my colleagues are jerks, of course, but the scientific work itself is so great that I&#039;ll be damned if I&#039;ll let them put me off.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How would this work for giving science students a fair warning without driving them away:  &#8220;My life in science is extremely rewarding.  Some of my colleagues are jerks, of course, but the scientific work itself is so great that I&#8217;ll be damned if I&#8217;ll let them put me off.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Countering Bad Experiences &#171; Mitigated Frenzy</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2500</link>
		<dc:creator>Countering Bad Experiences &#171; Mitigated Frenzy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2500</guid>
		<description>[...] Bad&#160;Experiences November 11, 2009   Melissa Draper writes (on Geek Feminism): If I take 50 women and successfully encourage them to join a project because [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Bad&nbsp;Experiences November 11, 2009   Melissa Draper writes (on Geek Feminism): If I take 50 women and successfully encourage them to join a project because [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Link: Geek Feminism: Doubting the Daubing Philosophy (Melissa Draper) &#124; Your Revolution (The Blog!)</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2493</link>
		<dc:creator>Link: Geek Feminism: Doubting the Daubing Philosophy (Melissa Draper) &#124; Your Revolution (The Blog!)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2493</guid>
		<description>[...] Geek Feminism: Doubting the Daubing Philosophy (Melissa Draper) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Geek Feminism: Doubting the Daubing Philosophy (Melissa Draper) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Asad</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2478</link>
		<dc:creator>Asad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2478</guid>
		<description>The daubing philosophy actually stems from a decontexualized notion of fairness.    Whether and how much fairness should be contextualized is a matter of some debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The daubing philosophy actually stems from a decontexualized notion of fairness.    Whether and how much fairness should be contextualized is a matter of some debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Katran</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2475</link>
		<dc:creator>Katran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2475</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the post; I found it a very useful read even though I&#039;m at all involved with open source software (I&#039;m a scientist of the non-computer variety.) This actually kind of reminds me of the &quot;recruiting&quot; strategy that I learned when I was an undergrad at Caltech. After I got accepted, I went down to visit, and the #1 piece of advice I heard from the students there was, &quot;Don&#039;t come here. It&#039;s hard. You&#039;ll have no life for 4+ years. And I&#039;m not kidding that it&#039;s hard. Really. Bye now, I have to go work on a problem set.&quot; Pretty much every visiting high school student heard that same advice, yet somehow enough of us ignored the advice and matriculated anyway. Undergraduate life was definitely not all rainbows and kittens (well, there was a kitten involved, but she took up far less of my time than I would have liked) and I&#039;m glad no one tried to sell it to me like that. [On the other hand, I wish I had heard from some of the female students more about what life would be like beyond the dating scene. I almost want to forward this blog post to the women&#039;s center there in the hopes that they&#039;d implement more support for women re: sexist attitudes, since I encountered my fair share of them and was naively unprepared for it, and the programs they offered tended to be more along the lines of self-defense workshops.]

On the other hand, I&#039;m wondering, when I talk to other women who are interested in physical science, how do I communicate to them that life isn&#039;t all fun, all the time, without causing my advice to trigger a Stereotype Threat and have them lose interest/confidence? It seems like there&#039;s a fine line to walk there, especially if you don&#039;t know of a lot of support resources. I don&#039;t want &quot;Life in science is hard sometimes,&quot; to come off like, &quot;Science is hard.&quot;--&gt;&quot;Well, I&#039;ll never be good at it, so I guess I&#039;ll just do something else.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post; I found it a very useful read even though I&#8217;m at all involved with open source software (I&#8217;m a scientist of the non-computer variety.) This actually kind of reminds me of the &#8220;recruiting&#8221; strategy that I learned when I was an undergrad at Caltech. After I got accepted, I went down to visit, and the #1 piece of advice I heard from the students there was, &#8220;Don&#8217;t come here. It&#8217;s hard. You&#8217;ll have no life for 4+ years. And I&#8217;m not kidding that it&#8217;s hard. Really. Bye now, I have to go work on a problem set.&#8221; Pretty much every visiting high school student heard that same advice, yet somehow enough of us ignored the advice and matriculated anyway. Undergraduate life was definitely not all rainbows and kittens (well, there was a kitten involved, but she took up far less of my time than I would have liked) and I&#8217;m glad no one tried to sell it to me like that. [On the other hand, I wish I had heard from some of the female students more about what life would be like beyond the dating scene. I almost want to forward this blog post to the women's center there in the hopes that they'd implement more support for women re: sexist attitudes, since I encountered my fair share of them and was naively unprepared for it, and the programs they offered tended to be more along the lines of self-defense workshops.]</p>
<p>On the other hand, I&#8217;m wondering, when I talk to other women who are interested in physical science, how do I communicate to them that life isn&#8217;t all fun, all the time, without causing my advice to trigger a Stereotype Threat and have them lose interest/confidence? It seems like there&#8217;s a fine line to walk there, especially if you don&#8217;t know of a lot of support resources. I don&#8217;t want &#8220;Life in science is hard sometimes,&#8221; to come off like, &#8220;Science is hard.&#8221;&#8211;&gt;&#8221;Well, I&#8217;ll never be good at it, so I guess I&#8217;ll just do something else.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2470</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2470</guid>
		<description>Incredibly great post. Thank you!

The betrayal is even worse when it&#039;s teenagers and young women brought in to be thrown into the deep end of the pool.  So often I see well-intentioned guys conclude that the solution to &quot;not enough women in the field&quot; is &quot;go invite in some 13 year old girls&quot;.  Hello... might some things be wrong with that picture? And IMHO while they have good intentions they look to teaching younger women and girls because they can&#039;t cope with a power dynamic that is anything other than them firmly ensconced in a position of maximum personal power and authority. They could focus on working with the adult women already in their field.  Also, men who don&#039;t believe there is actual sexism are not equipped to prepare young women how to react to harassment and sexist bullshit. Instead, as soon as women grow up and complain these same men are ready to throw them under the bus and start anew with fresh &quot;material&quot;. That trend worries me a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incredibly great post. Thank you!</p>
<p>The betrayal is even worse when it&#8217;s teenagers and young women brought in to be thrown into the deep end of the pool.  So often I see well-intentioned guys conclude that the solution to &#8220;not enough women in the field&#8221; is &#8220;go invite in some 13 year old girls&#8221;.  Hello&#8230; might some things be wrong with that picture? And IMHO while they have good intentions they look to teaching younger women and girls because they can&#8217;t cope with a power dynamic that is anything other than them firmly ensconced in a position of maximum personal power and authority. They could focus on working with the adult women already in their field.  Also, men who don&#8217;t believe there is actual sexism are not equipped to prepare young women how to react to harassment and sexist bullshit. Instead, as soon as women grow up and complain these same men are ready to throw them under the bus and start anew with fresh &#8220;material&#8221;. That trend worries me a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothea</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2467</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2467</guid>
		<description>That was a great read! Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was a great read! Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Daedala</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2009/11/09/doubting-the-daubing-philosophy/comment-page-1/#comment-2465</link>
		<dc:creator>Daedala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=1575#comment-2465</guid>
		<description>There is active research on this point: people are &lt;a href=&quot;http://web.hks.harvard.edu/publications/workingpapers/citation.aspx?PubId=3384&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;particularly averse to betrayal.&lt;/a&gt; Their risk models in dealing with other people are &lt;em&gt;different&lt;/em&gt; from their risk models in dealing with random chance.

The throwing-mud-at-the-wall idea is the kind of thing you get when you pay too much attention to game theory and too little attention to people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is active research on this point: people are <a href="http://web.hks.harvard.edu/publications/workingpapers/citation.aspx?PubId=3384" rel="nofollow">particularly averse to betrayal.</a> Their risk models in dealing with other people are <em>different</em> from their risk models in dealing with random chance.</p>
<p>The throwing-mud-at-the-wall idea is the kind of thing you get when you pay too much attention to game theory and too little attention to people.</p>
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