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	<title>Comments on: Geek feminism as opposed to mainstream feminism?</title>
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	<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/</link>
	<description>Women, feminism, and geek culture</description>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6155</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6155</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the overall US figure. I&#039;d &lt;em&gt;prefer&lt;/em&gt; to have good figures for industrialised countries overall (I am not based in the US myself), and for many STEM jobs in industrialised countries, but that&#039;s more research than I am willing to do for this blog post at this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the overall US figure. I&#8217;d <em>prefer</em> to have good figures for industrialised countries overall (I am not based in the US myself), and for many STEM jobs in industrialised countries, but that&#8217;s more research than I am willing to do for this blog post at this time.</p>
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		<title>By: Lizzzzzzzzz</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6149</link>
		<dc:creator>Lizzzzzzzzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6149</guid>
		<description>Great post, but I think it is really important for you to update your gender pay gap figures and specify if you mean just in the US. If so, as of 2008, the US average was 77.9%. http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/the-gender-wage-gap-state-by-state/

This is important because people are so incredulous and naive when it comes to believing sexism *gasp* STILL exists that using outdated figures makes your argument even more ignorable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, but I think it is really important for you to update your gender pay gap figures and specify if you mean just in the US. If so, as of 2008, the US average was 77.9%. <a href="http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/the-gender-wage-gap-state-by-state/" rel="nofollow">http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/the-gender-wage-gap-state-by-state/</a></p>
<p>This is important because people are so incredulous and naive when it comes to believing sexism *gasp* STILL exists that using outdated figures makes your argument even more ignorable.</p>
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		<title>By: Perspective from a Geek Feminist</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6127</link>
		<dc:creator>Perspective from a Geek Feminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6127</guid>
		<description>[...] out the full post [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] out the full post [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kite</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6087</link>
		<dc:creator>Kite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 03:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6087</guid>
		<description>I getcha. I wasn&#039;t actually being called out by her for being racist. I&#039;d take that on the chin in retrospect, you know? The argument started because she had a problem with the word Queer (me being the Queer Officer), as it erased women in her separatist lesbian view, I was too male-identified. Then it devolved into her attacking the way I spoke, which was geeky and used geeky Whedon-like words, and sounds male I suppose (as opposed to the arcane feminist academic-speak she and all her mates used to intimidate the uninitiated). 

I can see she was pissed off at my class and race, the advantages I&#039;d had. Almost every single other person in that damn bottle-drama collective was a middle-class white woman, so why didn&#039;t she have a go at them? And fuck her for shoving me, I know she&#039;s pissed off at the kyriarchy, but jeez, I&#039;d just had the same thing from a right-wing fuckhead male student politician a few days before, and it was pretty trigger-y from what my father used to do, you know? So fuck that. Fuck. That. Shit.  (Identifying as queer was racist too, okay, I see there&#039;s connections, what with her saying Foucault was a white male, but I refuse to stop id&#039;ing as queer, given how much bloody trauma &amp; violence it cost me to admit it to the world, even as I try to be more aware, you know?). I&#039;m no one&#039;s gratuitous punching bag, because I&#039;m conveniently different from the rest of the collective, like it was a playground again. 

That was ten years ago, and I&#039;ve searched and searched myself since, trying to work out what the hell went on, and the limits to what I might be seeing or not seeing with my privilege-goggles. What might I not have seen, what might I have done? In the end I think it was mainly a convenient scapegoating/bullying over other internal-politics-power-struggle issues to me (who controls the lesbians, Women&#039;s or Queer Department?), but of course fueled by privilege/identity differences. That happens. 

That confrontation had one &quot;positive&quot; for me, and that&#039;s to try to become a lot more aware of my identity privileges, which is a life-long process, so, hey. But jeez, reading over this, I still hold anger, which I&#039;ll have to let go; these events are so linked into me getting CFS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I getcha. I wasn&#8217;t actually being called out by her for being racist. I&#8217;d take that on the chin in retrospect, you know? The argument started because she had a problem with the word Queer (me being the Queer Officer), as it erased women in her separatist lesbian view, I was too male-identified. Then it devolved into her attacking the way I spoke, which was geeky and used geeky Whedon-like words, and sounds male I suppose (as opposed to the arcane feminist academic-speak she and all her mates used to intimidate the uninitiated). </p>
<p>I can see she was pissed off at my class and race, the advantages I&#8217;d had. Almost every single other person in that damn bottle-drama collective was a middle-class white woman, so why didn&#8217;t she have a go at them? And fuck her for shoving me, I know she&#8217;s pissed off at the kyriarchy, but jeez, I&#8217;d just had the same thing from a right-wing fuckhead male student politician a few days before, and it was pretty trigger-y from what my father used to do, you know? So fuck that. Fuck. That. Shit.  (Identifying as queer was racist too, okay, I see there&#8217;s connections, what with her saying Foucault was a white male, but I refuse to stop id&#8217;ing as queer, given how much bloody trauma &amp; violence it cost me to admit it to the world, even as I try to be more aware, you know?). I&#8217;m no one&#8217;s gratuitous punching bag, because I&#8217;m conveniently different from the rest of the collective, like it was a playground again. </p>
<p>That was ten years ago, and I&#8217;ve searched and searched myself since, trying to work out what the hell went on, and the limits to what I might be seeing or not seeing with my privilege-goggles. What might I not have seen, what might I have done? In the end I think it was mainly a convenient scapegoating/bullying over other internal-politics-power-struggle issues to me (who controls the lesbians, Women&#8217;s or Queer Department?), but of course fueled by privilege/identity differences. That happens. </p>
<p>That confrontation had one &#8220;positive&#8221; for me, and that&#8217;s to try to become a lot more aware of my identity privileges, which is a life-long process, so, hey. But jeez, reading over this, I still hold anger, which I&#8217;ll have to let go; these events are so linked into me getting CFS.</p>
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		<title>By: Burn</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6073</link>
		<dc:creator>Burn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6073</guid>
		<description>Kite- I vaguely recognize some of my own experiences from your stories. For me, it was a huge shocker moving back to my bastion-of-liberalism home city to go to graduate school, after going to a male-dominated engineering school as an undergraduate--one that, while I was nearly always outnumbered by men, let me forge some great friendships with other geeky women, since nearly everyone there was a geek. 

Some of the most surreal conversations I have had since coming to graduate school have been in a science education discussion group I was part of, that had 8 women and 2 men. 2 of us were physical scientists and the other 8 were biologists. The biology department, much like the university as a whole, is about 70% women. The physical sciences, engineering, math, and CS majors are &lt;50% women and are not in the same buildings as biology. Apparently this leads to some cluelessness about each others&#039; departmental cultures. In any case, every time the subject of gender came up, several of the women who were biologists acted a little incredulous that it would be an issue in other departments, because it had never been an issue for them. I mentioned that this was possibly due to a more even ratio in life sciences and got brushed off. It was officially Not a Problem Anymore, compared to racial and/or ethnic diversity, according to this group of white women. (And yeah, there are definitely a lot of problems with science education and class and race too...for sure, I agreed, but that didn&#039;t mean that we had to treat discussion time like a scarcity and never discuss gender issues ever.) The more frequently I was brushed off when this came up, the more unwelcome I felt when I would bring up anything related to physical sciences. I got accused of being overly assertive or dominating in the way I talked in discussions, even though I would sit there taking a tally of who was talking most, and it wasn&#039;t me, although I did try to temper how I talked. (Someone kind of implied that being assertive or aggressive, or arguing too much, was using patriarchal tools. Kind of ironic, since they were excusing the status quo.)

Luckily, things changed when I got most of the other people to attend a talk by Avi Ben-Zeev, who is a psychologist who studies the Stereotype Threat specifically as it relates to women and math. Pretty much all the women in the math department turned up for that, and a number of pretty horrific anecdotes came out about blatant sexism in the math department. (Women in the math lounge working together were accused of being part of a &quot;lesbian mafia&quot;.) After that, my colleagues didn&#039;t question gender issues that I and my astronomy counterpart would bring up.

I don&#039;t think that being assertive is anti-feminist, but I&#039;ve noticed that geek women who spend time in male-dominated environments adopt a particular style of assertiveness, either to be part of the group or as a defense mechanism, and it sometimes becomes an issue when talking with women who are part of another feminist tradition. I have a really hard time talking to women&#039;s studies majors and sociologists in person. I&#039;ve gotten over my issue with this particular group of biologists since I realized that they were sensitive about not being considered a real science by some blowhard physical scientists with a superiority complex. Having defended my own field (geology) to those types, I had to make it clear that when I was talking about possible differences in the experiences of biologists and physical scientists, it wasn&#039;t that I thought they were inferior, just that their experience of being amongst a group of at least 50% women wasn&#039;t universal.

Hew. That came out much longer than I expected it to, and much rantier. :/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kite- I vaguely recognize some of my own experiences from your stories. For me, it was a huge shocker moving back to my bastion-of-liberalism home city to go to graduate school, after going to a male-dominated engineering school as an undergraduate&#8211;one that, while I was nearly always outnumbered by men, let me forge some great friendships with other geeky women, since nearly everyone there was a geek. </p>
<p>Some of the most surreal conversations I have had since coming to graduate school have been in a science education discussion group I was part of, that had 8 women and 2 men. 2 of us were physical scientists and the other 8 were biologists. The biology department, much like the university as a whole, is about 70% women. The physical sciences, engineering, math, and CS majors are &lt;50% women and are not in the same buildings as biology. Apparently this leads to some cluelessness about each others&#039; departmental cultures. In any case, every time the subject of gender came up, several of the women who were biologists acted a little incredulous that it would be an issue in other departments, because it had never been an issue for them. I mentioned that this was possibly due to a more even ratio in life sciences and got brushed off. It was officially Not a Problem Anymore, compared to racial and/or ethnic diversity, according to this group of white women. (And yeah, there are definitely a lot of problems with science education and class and race too&#8230;for sure, I agreed, but that didn&#039;t mean that we had to treat discussion time like a scarcity and never discuss gender issues ever.) The more frequently I was brushed off when this came up, the more unwelcome I felt when I would bring up anything related to physical sciences. I got accused of being overly assertive or dominating in the way I talked in discussions, even though I would sit there taking a tally of who was talking most, and it wasn&#039;t me, although I did try to temper how I talked. (Someone kind of implied that being assertive or aggressive, or arguing too much, was using patriarchal tools. Kind of ironic, since they were excusing the status quo.)</p>
<p>Luckily, things changed when I got most of the other people to attend a talk by Avi Ben-Zeev, who is a psychologist who studies the Stereotype Threat specifically as it relates to women and math. Pretty much all the women in the math department turned up for that, and a number of pretty horrific anecdotes came out about blatant sexism in the math department. (Women in the math lounge working together were accused of being part of a &quot;lesbian mafia&quot;.) After that, my colleagues didn&#039;t question gender issues that I and my astronomy counterpart would bring up.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t think that being assertive is anti-feminist, but I&#039;ve noticed that geek women who spend time in male-dominated environments adopt a particular style of assertiveness, either to be part of the group or as a defense mechanism, and it sometimes becomes an issue when talking with women who are part of another feminist tradition. I have a really hard time talking to women&#039;s studies majors and sociologists in person. I&#039;ve gotten over my issue with this particular group of biologists since I realized that they were sensitive about not being considered a real science by some blowhard physical scientists with a superiority complex. Having defended my own field (geology) to those types, I had to make it clear that when I was talking about possible differences in the experiences of biologists and physical scientists, it wasn&#039;t that I thought they were inferior, just that their experience of being amongst a group of at least 50% women wasn&#039;t universal.</p>
<p>Hew. That came out much longer than I expected it to, and much rantier. :/</p>
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		<title>By: Helen Huntingdon</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6069</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen Huntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:19:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6069</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link! I clicked its links then its links and the goodies just keep coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link! I clicked its links then its links and the goodies just keep coming.</p>
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		<title>By: Restructure!</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6068</link>
		<dc:creator>Restructure!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6068</guid>
		<description>It sounds like white privilege and class privilege were part of the privilege they were talking about, especially since she was talking about &quot;your accent&quot; and &quot;the way you speak&quot;. In that case, a white woman being close to tears because her white privilege is being called out reminds me of &lt;a href=&quot;http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/white-womens-tears/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;White Women&#039;s Tears&lt;/a&gt;, except instead of racism, what is being called out is white privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like white privilege and class privilege were part of the privilege they were talking about, especially since she was talking about &#8220;your accent&#8221; and &#8220;the way you speak&#8221;. In that case, a white woman being close to tears because her white privilege is being called out reminds me of <a href="http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/white-womens-tears/" rel="nofollow">White Women&#8217;s Tears</a>, except instead of racism, what is being called out is white privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: Kite</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6067</link>
		<dc:creator>Kite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6067</guid>
		<description>Oh and sorry for all these replies. YES! The false scarcity! That&#039;s something I&#039;ve so seen! That&#039;s a great way of crystallising what&#039;s going on, going to go observe more of it now. It&#039;s binary thinking, I guess. Still unable to accommodate actual non-hierarchical diversity, just inverting the kyriarchy instead in this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and sorry for all these replies. YES! The false scarcity! That&#8217;s something I&#8217;ve so seen! That&#8217;s a great way of crystallising what&#8217;s going on, going to go observe more of it now. It&#8217;s binary thinking, I guess. Still unable to accommodate actual non-hierarchical diversity, just inverting the kyriarchy instead in this case.</p>
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		<title>By: Kite</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6066</link>
		<dc:creator>Kite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6066</guid>
		<description>Ugh yeah, I&#039;ve had to be quite the diplomat in order to find partners/friends amongst the neurotypical, that&#039; s what shat me off a lot really, I was so accommodating of their &quot;natural&quot; views a lot of the time (oh, the Goddess!). I think a lot of how they were thinking and what they were liking was classic feminine socialisation, despite the radical gloss. I&#039;d like to think I&#039;m ruder these days, although I am a complete hippy so all that new age stuff is everpresent. 8-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ugh yeah, I&#8217;ve had to be quite the diplomat in order to find partners/friends amongst the neurotypical, that&#8217; s what shat me off a lot really, I was so accommodating of their &#8220;natural&#8221; views a lot of the time (oh, the Goddess!). I think a lot of how they were thinking and what they were liking was classic feminine socialisation, despite the radical gloss. I&#8217;d like to think I&#8217;m ruder these days, although I am a complete hippy so all that new age stuff is everpresent. 8-)</p>
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		<title>By: Kite</title>
		<link>http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/09/geek-feminism-as-opposed-to-mainstream-feminism/comment-page-1/#comment-6065</link>
		<dc:creator>Kite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://geekfeminism.org/?p=2153#comment-6065</guid>
		<description>Woops, didn&#039;t realise there was a reply button, sorry for breaking the nest before. I just remembered a conversation with separatist house friends before things went weird, where one of them pointed out that my science brain, my ability to do logic/maths stuff, did carry more privilege than them with their um, more feminine minds. Which in many ways is true, for certain values of privilege. They had Arts and Law degrees themselves. But when they finally started to resent me, being told I &quot;triggered&quot; someone for resembling their dad in what was meant to be a male-free space, including wearing masculine clothes and using drills and circular saws a lot, and &quot;taking up space&quot;, and therefore I should move out, was... strange. I think it would have been easier to be more feminine back then, with women, and with geek men (I never got the sense that I would be taken *less* seriously in a skirt).  Anyway, I ID as femme these days, though I&#039;m disabled and can&#039;t work in IT any more. And have time to type long replies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woops, didn&#8217;t realise there was a reply button, sorry for breaking the nest before. I just remembered a conversation with separatist house friends before things went weird, where one of them pointed out that my science brain, my ability to do logic/maths stuff, did carry more privilege than them with their um, more feminine minds. Which in many ways is true, for certain values of privilege. They had Arts and Law degrees themselves. But when they finally started to resent me, being told I &#8220;triggered&#8221; someone for resembling their dad in what was meant to be a male-free space, including wearing masculine clothes and using drills and circular saws a lot, and &#8220;taking up space&#8221;, and therefore I should move out, was&#8230; strange. I think it would have been easier to be more feminine back then, with women, and with geek men (I never got the sense that I would be taken *less* seriously in a skirt).  Anyway, I ID as femme these days, though I&#8217;m disabled and can&#8217;t work in IT any more. And have time to type long replies.</p>
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